FAQ - И снова Асмодиан, и тайна его гибели

[Rand007]

И ГДЕ ЗДЕСЬ ОТВЕТ НА ВОПРОС ПОЧЕМУ? ПРИДАТЕЛЬСТВО? ПОЧЕМУ ТОГДА ВОСКРЕШЕНА ЛАНФИР? ОНА ЗАЧИНЩИЦА! АСМО ЛИШЬ ПОДЧИНИЛСЯ. Я ДУМАЮ ЧТО В РАЗГОВОРЕ С ДЕМАНДРЕДОМ Т. ЛУКАВИТ ОН НЕ ХОЧЕТ ПРИЗНАТЬСЯ ЧТО НЕ МОЖЕТ ВЕРНУТЬ АСМО. ПРОЩЕ СКАЗАТЬ НЕ ХОЧУ ЧЕМ НЕ МОГУ.

Однако, про Равина он говорит что не может

РАВИНА СГУБИЛА ЕГО ГОРДЫНЯ. ОН СЛУЖИЛ ХОРОШО, НО ДАЖЕ Я НЕ МОГ УБЕРЕЧЬ ЕГО ОТ ПОГИБЕЛЬНОГО ОГНЯ. ДАЖЕ Я НЕ В СИЛАХ СТУПИТЬ ЗА ПРЕДЕЛЫ ВРЕМЕНИ. — На миг этот ужасный голос наполнился гневом и... Неужели отчаянием?.. Но только на миг. — ЭТО СОВЕРШИЛ МОЙ ДРЕВНИЙ ВРАГ, ТОТ, КОТОРОГО НАЗЫВАЮТ ДРАКОНОМ. ТЫ ОСВОБОДИШЬ ПОГИБЕЛЬНЫЙ ОГОНЬ, СЛУЖА МНЕ, ДЕМАНДРЕД?

[puhlyi]

ряды ИЗБРАННЫХ  РЕДЕЮТ,  ДЕМАНДРЕД. СЛАБЫЕ  ОТПАДАЮТ. ПРЕДАВШИЕ  меня
встретят  ОКОНЧАТЕЛЬНУЮ  СМЕРТЬ. АСМОДИАН СЛОМЛЕН  СВОЕЙ  СЛАБОСТЬЮ.  РАВИНА
СГУБИЛА  ЕГО гордыня.  ОН СЛУЖИЛ ХОРОШО,  НО  ДАЖЕ  Я НЕ  МОГ УБЕРЕЧЬ ЕГО ОТ
ПОГИБЕЛЬНОГО  огня. ДАЖЕ  Я  НЕ В СИЛАХ СТУПИТЬ ЗА ПРЕДЕЛЫ ВРЕМЕНИ. - На миг
этот ужасный голос  наполнился гневом и... Неужели отчаянием?.. Но только на
миг. -  ЭТО СОВЕРШИЛ мой ДРЕВНИЙ ВРАГ, ТОТ,  КОТОРОГО НАЗЫВАЮТ ДРАКОНОМ.  ТЫ
ОСВОБОДИШЬ ПОГИБЕЛЬНЫЙ ОГОНЬ, СЛУЖА МНЕ, ДЕМАНДРЕД?

ЕСЛИ ПРАВИЛЬНО РАСТАВЛЕННЫ ТОЧКИ И ЗАПЯТЫЕ. ТО ПОЛУЧАЕТСЯ ЛЮБОПЫТНАЯ ВЕЩЬ:

СЛАБЫЕ  ОТПАДАЮТ. - АСМОДИАН СЛОМЛЕН  СВОЕЙ  СЛАБОСТЬЮ.




ПРЕДАВШИЕ  меня встретят  ОКОНЧАТЕЛЬНУЮ  СМЕРТЬ.

РАВИНА СГУБИЛА  ЕГО гордыня.


ОН СЛУЖИЛ ХОРОШО,  НО  ДАЖЕ  Я НЕ  МОГ УБЕРЕЧЬ ЕГО ОТ
ПОГИБЕЛЬНОГО  огня. ДАЖЕ  Я  НЕ В СИЛАХ СТУПИТЬ ЗА ПРЕДЕЛЫ ВРЕМЕНИ. а ЧТО ЕСЛИ ЭТО Т.ГОВОРИТ О АСМО А НЕ О РАВИНЕ?

[Rand007]

puhlyi, тогда получается, что Ранд его убил, а я в это не верю, "ЭТО СОВЕРШИЛ МОЙ ДРЕВНИЙ ВРАГ, ТОТ,  КОТОРОГО НАЗЫВАЮТ ДРАКОНОМ", если уж цитату приводить до конца, так что... А он как известно убил Равина, а не Асмодиана

[Albert Kraus]

Скорее всего Асмо пострадал от рук Лорда Люка

[Anton]

Я тут случайно встретил одну интересную теорию по данному вопросу. Надо отметить, что оно очень даже "in-deapth", и атрагивает не только смерти Асмодиана, но личину Таима.

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=102&theo=1772

Taim killed Asmodean

      This question has been beaten to death so many times. But why is it so difficult to determine the answer? I think it is because we have handicapped ourselves into believing something that is not true.

FAQ : "The first, of course, is the 'obvious' issue. Prior to LOC, Taim did not appear as anything other than vague rumor; we had absolutely no firsthand information on him at all until after Asmo's death."

Never has Jordan said that the case is 'obvious' by the end of TFoH.

Jordan has said the following on the subject :

"The Asmodean question? I've said time and again that there is enough evidence for you guys to figure out who killed Asmodean. I have, since Asmodean's death, put in a few more clues. The evidence is there, if not exactly listed with flaming arrows pointing to it. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer." http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=59

Make note of the fact that it should be obvious to a casual observer. A casual observer can not be informed by outside sources. They would not have access to RJ interviews, booksignings or www.theoryland.com. Their sole source of information is the books.

I believe that this quote, above all, shows that Jordan is frustrated that he is being asked repeatedly. But no more so than a teacher trying to get a student to focus on the lesson, and not the shortcut out. No wonder Jordan's catchphrase is Read and Find Out.

Unfortunately, I've seen too many theories that still stress that it should be obvious by the end of TFoH. Unfortunately, there are no 'obvious' suspects by then. Graendal's supporters must admit that Sammael is just as likely, or in fact, more likely, 'obvious' by the end of TFoH. Fain can't be obvious because the murder absolutely doesn't fit his style. Slayer was injured at the end of TFoH. Lanfear and Moiraine both fell through the Gateway together, which points to them being occupied at the moment.

So who is Taim?

We have no 1st person points of view from Taim, so we are left with understanding Taim from the events surrounding him, and his conversations with Rand.

We first learn of the Black Ajah plot in TSR Ch.5 from Joiya

"Joiya shrugged, 'As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al'Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand Al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has no seen since the War of the Hundred Years."

But is Joiya telling the truth? I believe this is best told through Moiraine's behavior.

Moraine appearently denies it to Egwene and Nynaeve by stating the Taim would find it impossible to proclaim himself after his escape, not because the escape is impossible.

"Is that what Moiraine told you?' Joiya asked with a touch of contempt. 'Moiraine has spent little time in the Tower since she was raised, and not much more with her sisters anywhere. I supposed she knows the workings of village life, perhaps even something of the politics between nations, but she does claim certainty about matters learned only through study and discussion with those who know. Still, she might be correct, Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself. But if others do it for him, is there a difference that matters?" tSR ch.5

However, her reaction is counter to dismissive.

"Three times--" Nynaeve burst out at Moiraine, "only three! --you have consented to help us question them. This time you vanish before we begin, and now you calmly annouce you are sending them off to Tar Valon! If you will not help, at least do not interfere!" tSR ch.6

And as an extra measure, Moiraine sends 3 letters to Sanche about what Joiya has stated.

"If Joiya speaks truly, it will take Aes Sedai and Warders to guard Mazrim Taim, not just the three of you. I sent a warning to the Amyrlin by pigeon when I first heard Joiya's story. In fact, I sent 3 pigeons, to make sure one reaches the Tower." tSR ch.6

But what we find is that only 1 letter arrives from Moiraine to Sanche, and only after Taim's escape.

"Why didn't she say more? And why have we not heard from her before this?" tSR ch.17

What is evident, is that someone is filtering the mail. Its not too crazy to suspect that the Black Ajah is playing a role in the blockade of Moiraine's information. Their plan required Rand to go ahead and proclaim himself, in order for Taim to act in his place (as quoted above in ch.5) So Sanche's forwarding of her plans to encourage Rand, is perfect for the Black Ajah. Which is why its no mystery that the Black Ajah would have much to gain if the plan was true, by filtering Sanche from knowing what was in Moiraine's letters.

"Nearly as bad as Trollocs, Mother." she said almost as soon as she began reading. "Mazrim Taim has escaped."

"Light!" Siuan barked. "How?"

"This only says he was taken away by stealth in the night, Mother. Two sisters are dead." - tSR ch.17

With 2 sisters dead, Moiraine has been proven disturbingly correct in her statement "If Joiya speaks truly, it will take Aes Sedai and Warders to guard Mazrim Taim, not just the three of you."

Some would say that this proves very little. But what is begun here is a basis for what happens in LoC and beyond.

We know in LoC, that Taim shows up alone. No followers. If he had been freed by his fanatic followers, why aren't they there? Most of them were completely out of sync with reality if they continued to follow Mazrim Taim.

Remember Joiya's recreation of Moiraine's thoughts on Taim?

"Still, she might be correct, Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself."

Which leaves us ultimately with what I see as Joiya's lie. Joiya states, "He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand Al'Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years." But I believe Taim is never proclaimed the Dragon Reborn after his escape because it is not feasible anymore.

What we know from LoC, is that Taim joins Rand. Instead of claiming to be Rand, he becomes the leader of the Asha'man in all but name. If Taim tried to destroy Tar Valon without Rand's permission, would it not be blamed on Rand?

So I believe Joiya told the truth about the Taim plot, but lied about exactly would happen afterwards. Thus lying and keeping to her black oaths, but yet sounding like she was giving up the goods. Because one can even assume that Joiya knew that Moiraine's letters would never arrive in time.

Lastly, Taim's comments also attest to the general feeling that no one would follow him anymore even if he did proclaim himself.

"What are my choices? To wander the world alone, friendless, hunted, while you rise to glory? That's supposing Bashere doesn't manage to kill me before I can leave the city, or your Aiel women don't. Even if they don't, the Aes Sedai will corner me sooner or later; I doubt the Tower means to forget Mazrim Taim."

If we assume from this point forward that Taim was freed by the Black Ajah, then his escape takes on a more important light. Obviously, if the Black Ajah tried to free Taim and not Joiya, then obviously Taim is more important than Joiya in the eyes of the Black Ajah.

But why?

I turn to our old friend, Howal Gode for the answer.

"Stop being foolish, my young friends. You know. You know very well. The Great Lord of the Dark has marked you for his own. It is written that when he awakes, the new Dreadlords will be there to praise him. You must be two of them, else I would not have been sent to find you."

While this quote can be very widely interpreted, I feel it says the following :

1. There is going to be a meeting of Dreadlords.

2. Gode doesn't seem to know what it means to be a Dreadlord

What matters to me is that here, we have some inkling that there might be a meeting of what Gode refers to as Dreadlords. In fact, I believe that Gode intends to bring Rand and Mat to the Darkfriend meeting in the prologue of tGH..

It's highly likely the Darkfriend Meeting included the 'New Dreadlords." I believe this is a very important statement, and it comes in the first book. Not deep in TFoH, but at the beginning of the series.

So we should have at least some reason to suspect by the end of TFoH that

1. There might be New Dreadlords

2. Taim most likely was freed by the BA because of some importance

3. The Dark might try to use Taim to hurt Rand's image

Which begs the question, is Taim connected to the Shadow?

I would like to introduce a new piece of evidence here that you have probably not seen before.

We learn of Lord Elegar in the TFoH prologue

"A minor noble, but faithful to his vows. He licked his thin lips nervously and glaced at the woman, then went immediately to one knee before Rahvin. Friends of the Dark -- Darkfriends they were called, now -- had begun learning just how strictly they would be kept to their vows now that Rahvin and the others were freed."

Fortunately for Lord Elegar, he ends up being in the courtyard when Taim shows up:

"Elegar staggered back among the columns and bent over, retching loudly."

I feel this is a very big hint. Here is an aid to Rahvin and Rand, who he wasn't nervous around. Yet, Taim makes him throw up.

Once again, I have to say that it is highly unlikely that he did this simply out of disgust. I believe that Lord Elegar clearly recognized Taim, and conviently hid himself from Taim's gaze.

With that, I would like to point everyone to the FAQ section link. They have a good listing of the points for and against Taim being connected with the Dark. However, they once against assume the only option is that Taim is Demandred's minion, with which I don't agree. The following are the best arguments for Taim being something more than a Demandred minion.

1. In LOC, Taim knows how to test for channeling ability, and picks up Gateways with relative ease. He apparently teaches the Asha'man very well. Plus, Taim mentions to Bashere that he used Compulsion on two people [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 76].

2. Taim claims to not be affected by the Taint, after (Rand estimates) 15 years of channeling [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 76].

3. Rand estimates Taim's age as 35, or a few years older [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 76]. However, Rand doesn't know about the "slowing" effect of using the OP. Elayne talks about it in ACOS: "'We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong you are, but when doesn't'" [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 408]. According to RJ, a man with the spark doesn't slow until 25, usually closer to thirty. [Post-TPOD Signing, New York, 20 October, 1998, report by Ryan R.].

Thus, the only way Taim could be the age he looks is if he started channeling at an unusually late age. If he's legit, he'd have to be a wilder, and thus he must have started channeling young, at around Rand's age. Let's postulate that men slow at a rate similar to women. We know that Garenia ran away from the Tower 70 years ago, and presumably she slowed before then, or soon afterwards (in her early 20s, as is usual for women). Garenia looks like she is Nynaeve's age, around 26. That corresponds to about five years of physical aging in 70 years. So, if Taim started slowing at 30, then his actual age should be around 100 or so. Thus, the problem of Taim's age is even more extreme than it first appears.

4. Taim's remark on "These so-called Aiel" [LOC: 11, Lessons and Teachers, 215]. Taim's remark's context is that of questioning the loyalty of the Aiel to Rand. Therefore, Taim must have understood what Aiel ment.

5. When Rand shows Taim how to make a gateway, he calls it a "gateway." A little further in the same chapter, Taim says, "You can Travel, but you don't know how to test for the talent." How does Taim know that a Gateway = Traveling? AFAIK, Rand didn't mention anything about "traveling," only "gateways."

6. Taim has taken to calling himself "The M'Hael," which means "leader" in the Old Tongue, and giving OT designations to his lieutenants. Taim knows an awful lot about the Old Tongue for a modern-day Randlander.

7. Taim has pretty much built the Black Tower on his own. Rand has made little effort to be involved in it, and has left the recruiting, training, and testing of Asha'man to Taim. Taim, in turn, has done a fine job - in just a few months (between LOC and TPOD) he's created an unconventional military force which can take on anybody in Randland, including Aes Sedai and Seanchan. Just a handful of Asha'man have proven to be the decisive factor in many battles, some of them against opponents with channeling capability.

So, we must ask ourselves, if Taim is so efficient at turning out combat channelers, why didn't he do it when HE was claiming to be the Dragon Reborn? He claims to have tried training other men to channel [LOC: 2, A New Arrival, 79], so the thought must have occurred to him. Granted, since he lacked Rand's ta'veren-power to attract recruits, he would have had a much smaller force than the 500 or so now at the BT. However, given that two or three percent of people can learn to channel [Guide: 2, The One Power and the True Source, 18], and that Taim's army of followers was of a "normal" Randland size (on the order of a couple thousand), he should have been able to get at least 10-20 men who could have been useful. Even ten male channelers is nothing to sneeze at, and yet Taim the False Dragon had no channeling followers.

8. A quick list of Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kisman, and Torval's curriculum vitae in TPOD:

* They set up the Illianer rebels to attempt to assassinate Rand, supposedly at the instigation of Aes Sedai.

* Torval tried to make Rand suspicious of Egwene's army which was, at the time, marching towards Caemlyn and the BT.

* Possibly, Gedwyn tried to subvert or cause problems with High Lord Weiramon.

* Taim set them up as "deserters" who tried to kill Rand (see section 1.4.10).

Originally, none of this pointed one way or the other. Both Minion Taim and Non-Dark Taim would be interested in exacerbating the tensions between Rand and the Aes Sedai, for reasons already discussed. Similarly, either Non-Dark Taim or Minion Taim would benefit from having a force of channelers who worked independently of the BT, and whose loyalty he could count upon, and whose actions he wouldn't have to justify to Rand.

However, Kisman's POV in WH changed matters:

"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered, before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M'Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.

And later still, Moridin had said, "Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions."

[WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 441-443]

Besides positively confirming that Taim was behind the attack in Cairhien, this quote also established that the renegade Asha'man were definitely all Darkfriends, and working in some capacity for both Taim and Demandred. (It's unclear from the quote whether they were collectively also reporting to Moridin, or just Kisman was, or whether Moridin's visit was a once-off deal, or what.)

But Most Important and what I believe proves Taim to be connected to the Dark, and not a minion of Demandred is...

9. After showing Taim the farm and testing Flinn in LOC, Rand and Taim have the following very interesting exchange, as Rand grouses about all the things he has to accomplish:

[Rand speaking]:"... And cleanse saidin, so men don't have to fear going mad, and the world doesn't have to fear men channeling. I'll..."

[...] "Cleanse saidin," Taim said softly. "I think that would take more power than you can imagine." His eyes lidded thoughtfully. "I have heard of things called sa'angreal. Do you have one you think you could actually - "

[LOC: 3, A Woman's Eyes, 91]

The significance of this quote is obvious. It means that Taim knew about Rand's intention to cleanse saidin long before Rand's slip in TPOD - he knew, in fact, from almost the moment the prohibition about killing Rand was put into place!

The FS, including and especially Demandred, know that the DO has forbidden anyone from killing Rand, as of the prologue of LOC. Taim finds out almost immediately afterwards that Rand is planning to cleanse the Taint, but nothing happens. (Well, a lot happens, but certainly the "don't kill" order is not changed.)

Then, in TPOD, Rand talks about cleansing saidin again - to Taim's lackey Torval, but much more importantly, to Dashiva, aka Osan'gar. With the result that Osan'gar tries to kill Rand at the end of the book.

True, Osan'gar merely joined in with an attempt on Rand's life already in motion, instigated by Taim, but what the above quote strongly suggests is that Taim's attack on Rand at the end of TPOD could not have been motivated by Rand's plan to cleanse the Taint. If it was, he would have tried to kill Rand two books earlier.

Osan'gar joining the attack, on the other hand, almost had to be motivated by that knowledge - and given what a wuss he was it's impossible to imagine he didn't have permission to do so from Moridin. He took advantage of Taim's conveniently timed assassination attempt to try and kill Rand.

The very strong implication here is that the FS in general didn't find out about Rand's plan to cleanse saidin until Osan'gar did, in TPOD. The obvious conclusion to draw, then, is that Taim could not be the Forsaken's minion, since Taim has apparently known for ages what the FS didn't discover until TPOD. The attack in Cairhien, then, was all on Taim's own initiative and had nothing to do with cleansing the taint.

This incidentally would explain perfectly why Taim was so shocked that Osan'gar joined in on the assassination attempt. If the attack was entirely motivated by Taim's own political self-interest, he would have had no idea what induced Dashiva to join in.

What we get is a very good case that Taim is a Dreadlord.

In fact, with the inconsistency in his Age, one would assume Taim could have been channeling for over 7 years. This implicates that Taim has the Dark One's protection from the Taint (aka. the black wires).

Which leads me to Slayer's latest employer, who I believe is indeed Taim.

The FAQ does a decent enough job narrowing the search down to basically Demandred and Taim at Link

But I highly doubt Demandred the culprit.

"The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen, but none of the Chosen Luc had met had ever taken such precautions as this.

In otherwords, the employer is hiding himself from Slayer's identification. I believe the FAQ is wrong, when the Forsaken found out that Rand was going to cleanse the source, all bets are off. Demandred had no reason to worry about hiding himself from Slayer. The only reason to have been hidden at that time, is if you weren't supposed to use Slayer in the first place.

- Also, I'd like to point out that Slayer's musings about killing Grey Men, turns into thoughts about the Chosen. Yet, he never thinks about killing a Forsaken, nor gives any hint that he has nothing but a basic cotempt for them all as group. No mention of a traitor or Asmodean. Therefore, Slayer's own thoughts prove himself innocent imo.

All of this leads me to believe there is a solid case to back up Taim's case as being a Dreadlord. One powerful enough to command other Dreadlords, and bold enough to risk commanding Slayer. So this is no ordinary Dreadlord, he has to be very special.

In, A New Spring, there are rumors of a man who has been channeling in the Borderlands. Could this have been Taim? Link If this is true, it's possible that Taim has been channeling many years.

This agrees with the idea that Ishmael taught Taim. Because in addition the the timing, there is the fact that Taim knows how to Test for the ability to channel. Rand has absolutely no clue how to test, so the indication is that it isn't intuitively obvious to your not-so-casual Channeler.

And then, there is the "so-called" Aiel phrase. The only other character to use that specific phrase was Ishmael.

We also know that Ishmael ran the Dreadlord Meeting of which Howal Gode refers. It would be no coincidence if Taim, as a Dreadlord, was there. Perhaps, even bringing the Darkfriends to and from the meeting. After all, Bors does not recount seeing Ishmael before his big entrance. So its possible that someone could have helped Ishmael do all the work.

So with Ishmael dead, the Aes Sedai after him...

"Do the best you can Leane. A dozen sisters. And five hundred of the guards. No, a full thousand." tSR ch.17

And most likely Bashere too, we are lead back to Rahvin.

First, note that Rahvin put off Bashere from ever entering the Palace.

"In truth, I rode to Caemlyn to speak to Morgase, but I was put off by Lord Gaebril's toadies..."

Yet, Bashere is certain that Taim is in Andor!

"I have followed him south for many weeks. You need not fear I've brought a foreign army into Andor. Except for an escort of ten, the rest I left camped in Braem Wood, well north of any border Andor has claimed in two hundred years. but Taim is in Andor. I am sure of it."

So when Taim shows up, what do we find out?

"Tumad emerged into the sunlight first, then a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark face and tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones, marked him another Saldaean, though he was clean shaven and garbed like a once prosperous Andoran merchant lately fallen on hard times. His dark blue coat had been of fine wool trimmed in darker velvet, but wear had made the cuffs ragged, his breaches bagged at the knee, and dust coasted his cracked boots." LoC ch2.

In addition, "the heat hardly seemed to touch him." - LoC ch.2

How does a Saldean, a man from what I would consider a cold climate, know how to use an AoL / Aes Sedai trick to ignore the heat?

And how does a False Dragon evade notice, while sticking out as a Saldean in Andorian clothing. I doubt he could have stolen the clothing.

I believe that Rahvin gave Taim the clothing. This would explain why the clothing is beaten up, as Taim would have had to go back to hiding if Rahvin was no longer protecting him.

So if indeed Taim was in the palace with Rahvin, this opens Taim up to some very important information. We know that Rahvin was the most likely suspect to have sent the Darkhounds to Rhuidean to see if Asmodean was with Rand. Basically, Rahvin is the only of the Forsaken who know, beyond Lanfear's word, that Asmodean was with Rand. So I suspect if Rahvin knew, Taim knew.

This puts a Dreadlord in Caemlyn, with the knowledge that Asmodean just might have followed Rand there.

Most theories suggest that their suspect killed Asmodean with Balefire. But what we know of Balefire, is that it is very powerful. But it ultimately leaves a residue. How could Rand or Aviendha not have noticed such a powerful weave, which had just been thrown around like crazy, if it was used to kill Asmodean?

What most people who believe Balefire was used as the weapon suggest, is that the description of Balefire matches the quickness and description of Asmodean's demise. While Balefire is near instant, I believe the description does not match.

Asmodean's murder: "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.

Belal's death: 'Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.'

But there is an indenticle phrase used later, in LoC Ch.6

" Suddenly everything came together in his head. The door had opened. He was smelling filth, not just feeliing it, but it was not really a smell. Dropping the letter, he pushed Aviendha away from him hard enough that she toppled with a startled yell - clear of him, though; clear of danger; everything seemed to have slowed down - and seized saidin as he spun.

Nandera and Jalani were just turning back to see what had made Aviendha shout. Rand had to look carefully to see the tall man in a gray coat that neither Maiden saw at all as he glided right by them, dark lifeless eyes fixed on Rand. Even concentrating, Rand found his own gaze wanting to slide past the Gray Man. That was what he was; one of the Shadow's assassins. As the letter was settling to the floor, the Gray Man realized Rand had seen him. Aviendha's shout STILL HUNG IN THE AIR and she was in midbounce from sitting down hard; a knife appeared in the Gray Man's hand, held low, and he darted forward. Rand wrapped him in coils of Air almost contemptuously. And a wrist-thick bar of fire flashed past his shoulder, burned a hole through the Gray Man's chest large enough for a fist. The assassin died before he could twitch; his head fell over, and those eyes, no more dead than they had been, stared at Rand."

On top of this identicle term, Taim gets this wrist-thick bar of fire without Rand, Aviendha or the Maidin's noticing he had Gated onto Rand's balcony, grabbed saidin and fried the Gray Man. The same group that were the only one's that could have detected the killer of Asmodean.

So here is proof, that Taim could have gotten away with it right under the noses of Rand, Aviendha and the Maidins, which matches the description of Asmodean's death.

To summarize -

Means : Taim is almost as powerful as Rand, and knows it, and his attitude towards the Forsaken is such, that he would have no problem killing Asmodean.

Also, Taim has the means physically, to be able to kill someone instantly, without Rand, Aviendha and the Maiden's even noticing him gate in and commit the act.

Graendal, on the other hand, is relatively equal to Asmodean. And knowing that Graendal was never informed of Asmodean's shield or lack of the Black Wires, one would conclude that it would be a very high risk to try to permanently remove another equally powered Forsaken.

And her typical means, as shown in TPoD Ch.12, when under attack, is to use compulsion.

Motive : Taim, with confirmation of Asmodean's traitorship via Rahvin, had every reason to believe he would be best serving the DO and Ishmael, by removing anything that could have been helping Rand. Taim's later interest with Slayer indicate his intention to be a new Forsaken, perhaps even take Demandred's place. So, killing Asmodean, would have helped him alot in the Dark One's ranks.

Graendal, once again, has no confirmation of Asmodean's traitorship. Her belief in Lanfear is totally contradictory to her utter distaste for Lanfear. In addition, if Graendal had bumped into Asmodean by accident, a reaction of balefire seems contradictory. Balefire would imply permanence, something that doesn't play to Graendal's compulsive behavior, nor to the situation. In otherwords, balefire seems a planned method of removing someone, not just something you put in play while your deep undercover trying to cover your tracks.

Opportunity : Taim was actually in Andor, and its not too hard to assume he could have been in the palace.

Graendal was supposed to be in Illian. There is no basis for the assumption that Graendal would be in Caemlyn. The belief that her character includes rumaging for Angrael's after another Forsaken's fall, is actually, a misinterpretation. Graendal was never in Illian to look for Angrael, but to cover her plotting with Sammael from the other Forsaken. Therefore, there is no reason to believe she would put herself in harms way over 1 meeting with Rahvin, which occured months prior, and did nothing wrong. Her plotting with Sammael happened while the Ban on killing Rand was in effect. Another problem with that belief is that it assumes Graendal would kill Asmodean on accident. If her reason for going to Illian was to cover her tracks, she made alot more in Caemlyn by killing Asmodean. Therefore, her opportunity would rely.

Be A Person who Asmodean Recognized : Taim's affiliation to Ishmael, and most likely the most powerful of the New Dreadlord, makes him a threat to Asmodean anyway. If the DO can pick up new, more powerful, and more successful Forsaken, why does he need Asmodean? Therefore, Asmodean should even have reason to fear Taim.

Asmodean had every reason to fear Graendal as well.

Be able to dispose of the body : Shouldn't be too hard, there were lots of bodies lying around anyway.

Same for Graendal. Although Balefire would have made it just that much easier.

Must Know about Asmodean's Fate : Taim has never spoken on the subject, and therefore has absolutely no quotes even remotely counter to an indication of innocence.

Graendal tries to convince Sammael that both Lanfear and Asmodean are dead. Unfortunately, even if she did believe it, it would be wishful thinking. But this is a very easy to spot lie by Graendal, who is trying to get Sammael worried about Rand killing the other Forsaken. Therefore, her lies indicate the opposite, that she believe both Lanfear and Asmodean to be alive, just like every other Forsaken.

Why is it a secret? : So as to hide Taim's Dreadlord status from the reader. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been surprising when Taim turns on Rand.

There is no reason for Jordan to be hiding Graendal as the killer. Which is probably, why the original question keeps coming up.

All in all, it should be obvious to even the most casual observer, that Taim killed Asmodean.

[Rand007]

Anton, выше в теме это уже было, если не ошибаюсь, но Таим появился в следующей книге, а Джордан, вроде говорил, что убийцу мы можем узнать на основе имеющейся информации, то есть не привлекая информацию из следующей книги.

[Ronnie]

Anton, выше в теме это уже было, если не ошибаюсь, но Таим появился в следующей книге, а Джордан, вроде говорил, что убийцу мы можем узнать на основе имеющейся информации, то есть не привлекая информацию из следующей книги.

Угу, людям дали гигантский нож для отрубания различных версий, но они упорно им не пользуются 

[JustAMan]

Да ладно вам спорить, осталось подождать-то совсем чуть-чуть до выхода книги

[Anton]

Нож не нож. А почитать интересно.

[игорь]

Anton, выше в теме это уже было, если не ошибаюсь, но Таим появился в следующей книге, а Джордан, вроде говорил, что убийцу мы можем узнать на основе имеющейся информации, то есть не привлекая информацию из следующей книги.

А интервью было после выхода книги в которой появился Таим или до?

[Ronnie]

А интервью было после выхода книги в которой появился Таим или до?

А разве в tGS что-то будет об этом? Мне показалось, что нет...

[JustAMan]

Не помню :embarrassed: Мне казалось, что будет... Но, может, я и ошибаюсь

2882

[Шарин Налхара]

Не помню :embarrassed: Мне казалось, что будет... Но, может, я и ошибаюсь

Оно будет в одно из трех книг.
Но судя по тому, что никто не вопит на Драгонмаунте об убийце Асмо. значит не в этой книге.

[игорь]

А разве в tGS что-то будет об этом? Мне показалось, что нет...

Незнаю, просто мне показалось неоднозначным вывод -

Anton, выше в теме это уже было, если не ошибаюсь, но Таим появился в следующей книге, а Джордан, вроде говорил, что убийцу мы можем узнать на основе имеющейся информации, то есть не привлекая информацию из следующей книги.

Если интервью было до выхода книги с Таимом, то конечно она, а значит и он отсекается, а если после, то эта книга вполне входит в уже имеющуюся информацию.

[Шарин Налхара]

Незнаю, просто мне показалось неоднозначным вывод - Если интервью было до выхода книги с Таимом, то конечно она, а значит и он отсекается, а если после, то эта книга вполне входит в уже имеющуюся информацию.

Нет, емнип, Автор говорил, что, прочитав момент убийства Асмодиана, мы УЖЕ можем догадаться, кто это, то есть обладаем всей необходимой информацией. А значит убийца появляется до ОН включительно. Именно поэтому отсекают как потенциальных убийц Таима, Шайдар Харана и Аран'гар/Осан'гар, которые появляются только в ВХ.